2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: i respect his opinion and your opnions just as much as the next person, so dont tell me that "wont see it" cause i do!

2005-01-21 [Whim]: valentine, the mind is physically the same and works the same no matter who you are, however, if I raised one child a certain way and raised another a completely different way, there are things I could say or do to one that the other just simply would not tolerate. It's the same way that children are raised on certain diets andd then continue those diets throughout life.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: then stop arguing a point that is unrelated BV...we are talking “hypothetically” if sex had no meaning, not that is *does or doesn’t

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: and besides...its not just physicaly that can be changed, its also physologlicy, opnions, trust etc etc

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: and whim, that is where "morality" come is...you are Raised with certain levels of morality...some people have high morals and are appalled by things that don't faze others do to their upbringing

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: ehy! i was only answering your comment!

2005-01-21 [Whim]: Yes, I've had sex, Raine...lol. But from what i understand, bruising and tearing and the like would be no more damaging than cutting a person or punching them in the face. Wounds heal. However, what you're talking about would be an expecially violent rape. I may be wrong, but it would take a might deep fuck to destroy her in such a way.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: depends on the woman's and man's structure...woman are different depths just like men are different lengths...a long man can seriously hurt a relatively small vagina-ed woman even if he IS gentle...and rape is RARELY anything but violent...the man is acting on lust and rage and usually doesn't hold back

2005-01-21 [Whim]: it's not just morals, Raine. That type of mental training and upbringing exists in pretty much everything we do and react to. It's why someone can call me names and push me around and I'll just ignore them or make jokes when another person will lose their temper and try to fight back.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: however...if it was a man who was raped..he would not show his emosions as much as a woman would...its the same with depression etc

2005-01-21 [Whim]: well, of course, but it's not common for a grown man to be big enough to harm a grown woman in that way. If it's an older man raping a younger woman, then yes, it's probably common and easy, but assuming the two are relatively the same physical maturity leveel.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: its still an invasion of privasy...

2005-01-21 [Whim]: It's insanely hard for a man to be truly raped...lol. Sorry, but there's probably very few men who can be truly raped so honestly a man will probably never understand simply because they can't be raped.

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: [Whim]: I wasn't taught that when I was a kid. Only after I was about 7 years old I was taught that. Even though I wasn't taught, I started realising something was wrong.

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: Not entirely true, my bro I have as an example :)

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: and even if the person dosent know it's wrong, they would have a little hidden voice telling them, wether they choose to hear it or not

2005-01-21 [Whim]: on some subliminal level, I think you probably were taught, sunrose. Of course, I can't prove that or deny what you say, but I think the fact that wearing the clothes we wear is such a requirement that you'll sort of piece it together. Clothes are designed to cover certain areas and you're taught to cover those areas pretty much from birth. Coverage implies protection.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: *huggles [Sunrose]*.....and whim...men *can* be raped...all it takes in the word "no"...you should know that a man sometimes can't help it if he gets hard...and i have read storied about a guy being held down while hard and raped when he didn't want it...and *also* that is only Male Female rape...men are often raped at the hands of another Man...

2005-01-21 [Whim]: Ok, please explain to me how a guy can be raped...hehehe. Like truly raped. Without viagra...lol.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: we should have a wiki for this, "the elfpack dabate" have a new topic each week/month...just an idea...

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: depends on how u mean it, at the hands of another guy, or by a girl..?

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: ...i know lots of guys who have been raped either by a man or woman...it bothers them just as much as it does a woman...but people like you that think men "can't be raped" don't believe them, or mock them out for being weak, so they don't come forward as many woman do...

2005-01-21 [Whim]: if a man REALLY doesn't want to have sex, he'll refuse it. If the man does get hard at any time, it won't stay hard unless he's enjoying it on some level. If he were to feel helpless and maybe even scared, he'd lose his erection.

2005-01-21 [Whim]: I know men can be felt up and fondled and all this other stuff, but I don't believe they can be raped without enjoying it on some level, unless of course, they're sodomized.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: not nesserally, if at the hands of another guy...

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: not all men lose their erections do to fear...they have been able to prove that some men can stay hard with *any* sort of sexual contact, whether or not they want it, or are afraid or not...

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: [Whim]: seriously I didn't know. because I grew up with abuse. all my sibs. how was I supposed to know? I didn't know what happened until others pointed it out, but mostly due to some other experiences. however from my behaviour and what I remember...there were notifications that something was wrong.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: and yes, men can be "butt raped" too...my friend (who will remain nameless) was raped by two men...that was just as tramatic as *any* rape

2005-01-21 [Whim]: lol...well, maybe that's true. I suppose I can't prove it's not. But I know that I've started to lose an erection during sex that I actually wanted simply because my mind started to wander...lol.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: *huggles sunrose again*

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: i think i should make that wiki..what do u think? i dunno...

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: well, i would say my experance, but this is a public message board, i will tell you if u message me, if u really want to know

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: no one ever goes to those when they are set up...these *good* debates are always spontanious on completely unrelated wiki boards

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: LOL! well it's not going to become any worse or less worse if others know..imo anyway

2005-01-21 [Whim]: well, sunrose, like I said, I don't know the entire situation, so I can only guess, but my only other thought on it would be that you might have learned what was bad based on what you found to be bad while growing up. Any abuse is harder when you're much younger, so any experience that felt uncomfortable or painful would of course lead you to believe it's bad.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: it would be, anyone of my friend i know irl could see it, and i respect there opnions too much to do that

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: it's part of what makes us us, and it's in the past...for sunrose and i, the abuse is in a childhood we have long since left, so time (i assume) has heald slightly, so it is less painful (for me at least) to talk about it...if it happend in the last few years, or i could recall it better, i bet i would be less easy about it

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: .....

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: what does "....." mean BV?

2005-01-21 [Whim]: damnit, I've lost my train of thought.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: nothing...just...ur last comment...

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: i was implying that Sunrose didn't seem to mind talking about it, nor do i...but if *you* didn't, that was fine...i meant nothing by it

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: and stupid whim...it's the plague i gave you...it's finally setting in...(^_^)

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: no no, it wasent that, my "experance" was quite resent, so i kind of knew what u ment, but like i said, i wont say what it is here

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: Uhm who is to say when it last happened to me. However I am just open about it. And what have your friends got to do with it? You respect their opinion? And so they can't know..or..???

2005-01-21 [Whim]: nah, I think it's cause I exhausted my thoughts on the topic for the day...hehehe. It's pretty hard to make up theories on the spot, you know?

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: wait...what friends? what? i'm lost....(>.<)

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: what my friend think of me is important to me...anything they would say i would take seriously in a certain subject because i respect there opnions so much

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: yeah...i understand that whim...it was a passtime of mine for years...(^_^)

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: yes BV, and so they would say what about you being raped?

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: some people are insensitive to it, not having been through it themselves...and sometimes they *have* been through it, but think no one has had it as "bad as" them...so aren't sympathetic

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: ....ive no idea...but like i said, ,i really dont want to say it here, any where else i wouldent have a problem with it, the fact is, no one really knows

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: about what happened, i havent told anyone

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: well, it's your right not to say...there are things about myself i would never say/ admit to on a public wiki like this...*shrugs*...but you shouldn't bottle it up either BV...you *have* to talk to *someone*...someone you can trust...

2005-01-21 [Whim]: oh, I have countless other things I could easily argue about, but rape isn't something I've thought much about before an hour ago...hehe.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: i am actully knowen for my openess, but...i just cant...because it happened not to long ago, im sorry

2005-01-21 [Whim]: I'm insensitive about everything cause I have an optimistic attitude...hehehe.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: i wasn't implying that you do it *here* but just make sure you talk to *someone* about it...if you can't talk about it with your friends, then someone else that you trust....but you can't keep it to yourself or you will feel worse

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: i cant tell anyone i see everyday! that would be a fate worse than death, i dont mind telling ppl i dont know for some reason..probally because they cant judge me the way my friends can

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: and Whim says he's optimistic, when we all know he is just a self-righteous jackass

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: If your friends react as if it's your fault you were raped or whatever opinion: don't you think they are bad friends BV?

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: why don't you message me, not here...i want to talk to you about this...*agrees with Sunrose*

2005-01-21 [Whim]: an OPTIMISTIC self-righteous jackass.

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: LOL! ^__^

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: im not sure they would do that, i actully dont think they would, its just...i dunno, im sorry

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: did you read what it said in my house whim? "I’m pessimistic; I like to beat optimists with heavy blunt objects."....

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: are you sure u want to listen to my rambleings?!

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: and try to help you while i listen...sure

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: there bad 4 you! muhahah lol

2005-01-21 [Whim]: valentine isn't afraid of what they'll think. She's afraid that if people know, she'll have to look them in the face. Right now, she's only dealing with the shame to herself, but if she tells a friend, then that's a person she'll have to share the shame with and instead of believing that that would cut the shame in half, she believes it will double it since it will be more wide-spread.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: yup...and i know how she feels...just like you described it whim...thus why i want to talk to her...

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: its kind of both, i am scared of what they think aswell...

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: are u totaly sure RD?

2005-01-21 [Whim]: Psh...rainedrop, you have no reason to be pessimistic.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: message me BV!

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: Hmmm...guess I am shameless then? :)

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: and why shouldn't i be pessimistic whim? i see things that way...the glass is "half empty" and what not

2005-01-21 [Whim]: well, if they're really friends, then they won't look down on you...or at least they shouldn't. But it's understandable that you wouldn't want to risk it.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: .....alright....

2005-01-21 [Whim]: but even if the glass is half empty, it's still better than empty.

2005-01-21 [Whim]: hehehe...yeah, I suppose you are rather shameless, Sunrose...lol.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: by the way RD...its the first time ive ever told anyone this....

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: well whim, if i am LOOKING at a glass that HAS liquid in it, regardless of whether i saw it as half empty or full...i would just be plain stupid to say it's "empty"

2005-01-21 [Whim]: exactly. So just be glad you're not a complete retard, Raine. And be happy that you still have something to drink...hehe.

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: But I would prefer real friends over fake ones any time. Hehe *pokes [Whim]*

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: the whole, glass half empty/full al depends on how you look at life...its like, if a tree falls in a wood, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: i would assume it would since it doesn't *chose* to make a noise, it is just a consequence of falling

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: i think there true, no, i know they are, i suppose, if it had been longer sice it happened i might have more confidence to tell them

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: Yes.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: lol, yes, it *does* tecnally ,make a sound

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: Well then you should have nothing to worry about...

2005-01-21 [Whim]: It technically doesn't make a sound because sound is just vibrations in the air that are interpreted by ears and brain as sound. So it's not sound until the vibrations hit an ear.

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: but the vibrations are still there: an animal ear could catch m.. :p

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: the sound vibrations are there, just no one to hear them...

2005-01-21 [Whim]: well, when you say no one, are animals included. If an ear catches the vibrations at all, then yes, it's a sound, but if no ear is around to interpret the vibrations as sound, then no, no sound is made. In fact, sound doesn't even really exist. It's all vibrations and our minds translating abstract waves.

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: LOL!

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: well, tecnally, there is no answer, if no one is there to hear it, we cant possably say for a fact

2005-01-21 [Whim]: oh, there's an answer...lol. I just gave it...heheh. The vibrations occur regardless of whether someone is there or not. So the question is, when does sound become sound? Is it a sound when the vibrations are made or is it a sound when it hits the ear?

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: we know the sound vibrations are made...it can be tested time and time again...but THAT you speak of is the theory of uncertainty...”whatever you study you also change”...i consider it sound the moment the vibrations are made...anything that can hear can HEAR it...andything that can't hear, CAN'T HEAR IT...but the vibrations are still there...it can be felt sometimes

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: ever heard of a sonic boom?

2005-01-21 [Whim]: unless vibrations simply don't happen unless someone is around like some sort of magical force that's only drawn out by microphones or ears, then what I said is right. But if we live in a universe where things only happen if we believe they happen, then this "theory of uncertainty" is true.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: and plus, how do we know that the energy that creats sound is not changed into heat say...etc...lol

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: THAT BV is the theory of uncertainty...that is what i "came up with" when i was small, that i learned later was already a theory...

2005-01-21 [Whim]: it probably does make a small amount of heat and kinetic energy, but it eventually just fizzles out.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: then you get into the Chaos theory at the same time...every small change effects something that effects something else, and something like a sneeze, and creat a tornado in texas....

2005-01-21 [Whim]: and if you really want to blow your mind, learn everything you can about the RPG Mage: the Ascension and then apply those ideas to real life...hehe. Or watch the matrix and get a dumbed down version of it...which actually isn't that dumbed down...hehe.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: question: do you think a devorce of parents, or the absencence of a father can change one's views or opnions?

2005-01-21 [Whim]: yep. It can drastically change opinions depending on the person.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: i disagree whim...it used to...but it's so common and accepted now it doesn't seem to effect but the select few in a negative way

2005-01-21 [Whim]: it doesn't seem to effect people these days because it happens to everyone so where's the change? lol. But it does make a difference. It just happens to be the new norm to have divorced parents or no dad.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: and that is sad that 46% of all marriages end in devorce, and within 4 years...people are just not commited anymore

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: i think in some sutitons it can, but, with me, i think it was for the best...i really hate my father...the only thing i share with him is my DNA

2005-01-21 [Whim]: it's because it became so normal. A few more people do it every year instead of fixing what they have, so people are much more willing to just end it because it's socially acceptable and even praised in some respects. On top of that, people are getting more careless about finding the right partner. People fall in "love" for all the wrong reasons and then end up miserable and more willing to divorce later on.

2005-01-21 [Whim]: well, having divorced parents can change yourself in positive ways too, bloody.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: my mum only married my father because of me..i was a mistake lol

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: and thus why i don't believe in sex before marriage...too many people marry souly on such lustrius feelings and when those die, so does the marriage

2005-01-21 [Whim]: see? And stuff like that happens too. People are too careless about love and sex these days that they make mistakes.

2005-01-21 [Whim]: you can marry for the wrong reasons without having sex, raine.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: true...but it limits those mistakes and "wrong reasons" considerably...

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: actully, i do beilve in sex b4 marriage

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: that is you, and ME, i believe it should wait,...it's safe in SOOO many ways...less risk of STDs and AIDS, no unwanted babies, and no being "used then tossed aside"

2005-01-21 [Whim]: it only limits certain mistakes. A couple is allowed to have passion. If a relationship is just constant sex, then that's when a problem may occur.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: btw..there not called STD'S anymore, there STI's....just thought i would randomly say that

2005-01-21 [Whim]: lol...I'll assume the I stands for illness?

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: infections

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: a little late but, rd: you believe you should stay a virgin until marriage because else you might marry for the wrong reasons like a pregnancy? but you don't see that getting married after getting pregnant is a seperate choice?

2005-01-21 [Whim]: ah...right. Oh well, I'll keep calling then STDs...hehehe. Cause they should have thought about this before they taught me it in school.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: thouhgh some can be treated and cured in a few weeks, others last a lifetime

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: i believe that he should love you for you, not because he likes my pussy...if he loves me enough to wait with me till marriage, he seems pretty committed to me, and if he loved me and waited, what else would he do for me? he would probably stick around, even through rough times, and work problems in our relationship out rather than have a divorce or an affair and run off with someone else because he likes their bed more…

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: RD...off the subject i know...but u think im really stupid dont u?

2005-01-21 [Whim]: well, yeah, but a couple who does have sex before marriage can still have a good marriage. If a couple really loves eachother like they should, then you shouldn't have to test a guy by making him wait, which sounds like what you're implying.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: talk to me about that in a message BV...not here...

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: i am being safe...yes i am testing him, because people will do alot to get what they want before dropping you...if he loves me, nomater how long it takes, he would wait and respect me...

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: sorry, its just the messages take ages, i just wanted to know, sorry

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: i think marrage is very over rated now, in the past it might have been a sign that u loved someone...now its just a bit of paper and a ring

2005-01-21 [Whim]: but don't you think you're maybe viewing it like he's got to compete to win you or something? It's kind of an arrogant look at love if you feel like you have to test a guy like that.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: and i suppose its to do with religon and self morrals to

2005-01-21 [Whim]: oh, I totally respect the idea of waiting due to religion and morals, but the "testing" bit worries me a bit.

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: i think i'm worth more than a simple lay for a guy...i know TOO many girls who's BFs told them they loved them, prommised them marriage, had sex with them, and dumped them within a week of the act...leaving my friends broken and feeling foolish and worthless...they had been plaied...that will not happen to me

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: it isn't a "test" as much as i feel it is the right thing to do...and if he can't see and understand that, he isn't worth my love

2005-01-21 [Whim]: but it's like the guy has to work to prove himself. What are you doing for him?

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: love is love...u either dig them, or u dont, sex shouldent change that, nither should marriage

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: sex should VB...for someone that has been raped, you should know that...and what am i doing for him/ what would i be doing for him in the same EXACT relationship ifwe WERE having sex?...i should be faithful to him, respectful, loving, caring, fun...

2005-01-21 [Sunrose]: The guy can still divorce you RD.

2005-01-21 [Whim]: exactly. And I hate the idea that women are supposed to be held to this higher standard to the point where they're practically worshipped but guys aren't supposed to expect that in return or they're seen as dogs. But then marriage comes along and the guy doesn't hold up that whole worshipping act much longer and then the woman is left there wondering what happpened to the guy she dated.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: rape is unwanted sex, thats not what i ment...i ment if you had been with them, and knew them...what diffrence does a bit of paper make?

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: the paper is a commitment to me and me alone, through sickness and health, riches and poor, till DEATH do we part...that is what that paper means

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: and i don't believe woman should be worshiped WHIM! i believe we should honor our men, work to make them happy, give them what they want, but expect only the same in return...nothing more or less

2005-01-21 [Whim]: if two people love eachother and are truly committed, they won't need that paper to be true to eachother and stay together. Ultimately, marriage is just a show and a way to officialize the relationship with the government.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: no, its two signatures, lawfully binding you to eachothers fortuines...thats what marrage was origannly held to do, to bound estates and gain money, nothing to do with love

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: marriage is a tax write off as far as i'm concerend, but i believe if a guy is willing to make a legal promise to be with me, then i will hold him to that...

2005-01-21 [Whim]: I exagerrate when i say worship, but that's what you imply when you say that a guy has to work for your love by waiting for sex. Not that a man should automatically get sex, but the woman shouldn't be holding him back to make sure he's an ok guyl.

2005-01-21 [Whim]: so if a guy tried to get you to sign a pre-nuptial agreement, would you be offended in any way, rainedrop?

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: depends on what the agreement was...if it was, "i swear not to cheet and to stay by you till death" sure, i would sign it...if it made him feel better...if i already felt that way, what's wrong with proving it?

2005-01-21 [Whim]: pre-nups normally involve keeping all financial and material assets seperate. They simply say that neither person can financially gain from the marriage or a divorce. That also implies that a person could divorce very easily with little legal trouble since there was an agreement that no one can get the other's stuff.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: if i was ever to get married, that would have to be in the deal, im not putting myself threw what my mum and dad went threw...my dad's an asshole...

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: i would wonder why he was worried about not wanting to split stuff incase of a divorce...i would ask if he felt so unsure of our marriage that something like that would be needed, why he had bothered to ask me in the firstplace

2005-01-21 [j-ho]: Wow now i dunno if ill ever wanna get married lolz

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: and i don't agree with divorce...i would never devorce my husband, no matter what

2005-01-21 [j-ho]: same here

2005-01-21 [Whim]: And he could ask why you thought so little of him to test him up until marriage...hehe. The point is, marriage is so easy to nullify these days that it means very little. The most meaningful marriage would be one that involved no marriage certificate. Just a ceremony.

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: so if u stopped loving him and visa-versa, you would live in misery??

2005-01-21 [Whim]: and hey, he could divorce you then. I mean, you can't force the guy to stay if he wants a divorce, right?

2005-01-21 [Nevermore.]: right..he could lawfully divorce you withought your concent

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: i wouldn't *stop* loving him because true love isn't something that just stops cold one day, and i wouldn't marry on impulse or anything where i would marry someone who i wouldn't be willing to spend my life with...that's what those "tests" as whim calls them are for...so i know he is totally commited to me

2005-01-21 [RabidSphinx]: i would never sign the papaers for a divorce...and if it were because he was with someone else, i would just kill them both and rot in jail rather than devorce him

2005-01-22 [Whim]: Then if you really believe he'll stay and love you forever, you wouldn't mind him taking precautions that allow him to easily escape the marriage if he wants to. If it's meant to be, you'll never have to worry, and if it's not, then why would you want to make the guy stay?

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: because he wouldn't *want* to leave if he loved me...how many times do i have to explain this? if he is willing to stick it out with me, and marry me, and live with me, then he loves me and WOULDN'T LEAVE!

2005-01-22 [Whim]: From what it sounds like, love is secondary to you when it comes to marriage. For you, marriage is about binding yourself to another person and using marriage as a way to confine the person.

2005-01-22 [Nevermore.]: and plus, he dosent need your signature after 5 years of seperation...

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: i wouldn't sign such an agreement, because he would be just as insulted if i asked that of him!

2005-01-22 [Whim]: so why do you need to be legally bound then? If he won't leave, then you don't need legal marriage.

2005-01-22 [Nevermore.]: and if you really did love each other, what does a peice of paper and a ring really make?

2005-01-22 [Whim]: The ring is a noble symbol. The piece of paper is just another government document.

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: it would mean he was willing to share EVERYTHING with me...his love, body, home, and assets...he trusts me with *everything* just like i would be

2005-01-22 [Whim]: but you don't trust him unless he commits to this legally binding contract, right?

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: if he is THAT concerned about his wallet, then he can't be all that concerend with me

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: i trust him...but also, what if i *did* have sex with him and got pregnant? we wouldn't have the stable living conditions and money we would have had if we had waited until we were married

2005-01-22 [Whim]: what if he's not concerned with his wallet? What if he's testing you just as you test him? Maybe he doesn't want to feel like you feel that you must imprison him with a legal contract.

2005-01-22 [Whim]: if you simply wait until you're living together and financially stable before you get pregnant, it's the same thing. You can hold off on the sex until you both are financially stable without getting married.

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: i'm not "imprisoning" him...but he would know from just DATING me, that i felt marriage was a life time commitment, and things like money shouldn't get in the way!

2005-01-22 [Nevermore.]: love is built on emosions, not materal things like money

2005-01-22 [Whim]: marriage is a lifetime commitment, but why must the government be involved in that commitment?

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: a ceremony would due...not a legal marriage, but the VOWS are what i care about...his promise, his WORD that he would stay with me until the day we BOTH die.......that is what i want...

2005-01-22 [Nevermore.]: so, if u died (which i hope you wont, im not wishing that on u) would you be offended if he re-married?

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: most deffinatly...i would never re-marry...and i wouldn't want him to either

2005-01-22 [Whim]: Then you could do it without a marriage certificate leaving both people open to leave whenever they want with no legal problems at all, but since there's trust and commitment, neither should be leaving if you're both so sure of what you have. So if a couple can last forever without the government hanging over their head, that is a couple that was truly meant to be together.

2005-01-22 [Nevermore.]: so you would leave him alone and in misery for the rest of his existing life? its his life1 he could do what he wishes! it would have not thing to do with you if it did happen, u dont control him

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: and that is what i want whim...just to be with my one man, whoever that ends up being, forever...i want our graves to be side by side....and BVif he loved me, he wouldn't be ABLE to fall in love again bitch...he would wait to be with me in the afterlife, in heaven/hell/ purgitory/reincarnation/or just sleep of death...

2005-01-22 [Whim]: and that's just horrible in my opinion. I mean, hey, it's your thing and your morals to not want to remarry, but I seriously think that if whoever I was with was lonely after my death, I'd want them to do whatever it took for them to be happy again. I'd like to think that I'd love them enough to see them find happiness with another person if I were to die.

2005-01-22 [Whim]: ok then. I dare you to have an unofficial wedding, and by unofficial, I mean that it's just a ceremony with rings and family and no marriage certificate. You can get a marriage certificate at any time that you want after that. They're not hard to get.

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: you are *daring* me? it isn't just up to me whim...it's up to my partner too...what if he wants it to be official?

2005-01-22 [Nevermore.]: if he truly loved you then no one could take your place, it dosent mean he cant love again! thats not fair! who are you to play god with somones life and opnion...u dont own them!

2005-01-22 [Nevermore.]: and dont call me a bitch! im entitled to my opnion! inless you are to childish to take it!

2005-01-22 [Whim]: oh, well, obviously if he agrees to it. That's what I meant really. So if your partner agrees to it, do it. I personally believe it would be much more meaningful.

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: i own their LOVE as they own mine BV! it can't just be passed around! he can't go, "well, she's dead, i wonder if there is a singles bar nearby...." he would live, as i would, faithful to eachother even after the other is gone, because that is the basis of our relationship, that we wouldn't ever be with ANYONE ELSE!

2005-01-22 [Whim]: Raine, it's a lovely belief you have there, but depending on how old your husband was when/if you died, I'd bet money that he'd find someone else. You think he'd never have sex again too?

2005-01-22 [Nevermore.]: tahts not how it works and u know it! he wouldent simpluy say that otherwise he wouldent truly love you! if you love someone you are supposed to care for them...would you care if they were un happy, ofcourse u would! so what diffrence does it make when your dead!? u would still want them to be happy, not alond and wondering the earth on their own!

2005-01-22 [RabidSphinx]: like i said whim...the basis of our relationship....i would go a lifetime without sex, as would he...love is stronger than that menial act of lust

2005-01-22 [Whim]: not when your wife dies...lol. You can live in this fantasy you have there, but the world does not work like that and people don't work like that. The odds of you finding a guy who would live up to your standards of love are slim to none.